(non-)european players and their ping

Quote from Comrade Yuri

Since when do I have to agree with everything badidol says? Apart from him asserting there to be a problem without backing it up, he also makes no claim on the nature of said problem, whereas y'all claim people from LatAm being its source. So you're back to the point where you have to prove that with metaphysical claims about how lag works and the assertion of malice without evidence.

Just the fact that someone like you with a background in IT faints ignorance to the simple fact that there can't be a long distance peer-to-peer connection between a Lat-Am and European player without a ping well above 100ms, which unavoidably leads to lag, says everything.

Lat-Am players are not the problem. Their distance to European players is the problem.

And it doesn't matter if there's malice involved or not.

That's like a man using the womans restroom and when called out the responce is "prove malice".

Even if he's not aware of it and without malice, there's still an avoidable problem with that.

I don't think this is the right place for the transgender restroom debate, but if you really must know my position on that: just use whichever you want.

As far as your "simple fact" is concerned, both lag and specific ping scores have their causes in network delay, which itself is caused by physical and technical limitations (among other problems). Anything born from that is an issue of how the game deals with latency.

Anyway, since we can both agree that the players are not the problem, regardless of our specific look at it, can you tell me why discriminating against said players should be the solution?

Quote from Comrade Yuri

I don't think this is the right place for the transgender restroom debate, but if you really must know my position on that: just use whichever you want.

As far as your "simple fact" is concerned, both lag and specific ping scores have their causes in network delay, which itself is caused by physical and technical limitations (among other problems). Anything born from that is an issue of how the game deals with latency.

Anyway, since we can both agree that the players are not the problem, regardless of our specific look at it, can you tell me why discriminating against said players should be the solution?

Because you can't fix a technological failure and impossibility without either making kog to recode their entire game or even "discriminate" said playerbase. While you think this is "discriminating" of a specific group of players, they themselves are even willing to leave this server IF GF ever transfers them to either a seperate server for their own OR transfer their accounts into an existing publisher in LatAm.

It's funny that you Yuuma, Aki and somewheere completely ignore the fact that even LatAm are pissed off at their delay to other players and want to play the game with themselves (which was somewhat possible on ES). When said playerbase agrees with the idea of seperating them from the europe playerbase, then why do you still argue against it? Why do you bring dumb stuff into the equation where it doesn't belong? Is it fun for you to sacrifice your time to get some laughs off of people anger because you can't seem to get it from somewhere else?
You're not even trying to debate things or debunking brought-up arguments, you're only twisting written words into stuff you yourself can use against them. Which, by far, is not impressive or makes you seem like a winner in a debate, because you weren't able to negate their arguments and had to make them agree with your facts.

You should start to either get sociable or actually try to convince the opposing faction with your arguments, otherwise stop commenting any further. It has been stated there is a problem, the problem has been acknowledged by players from europe AND latam (some even DO NOT QUEUE BECAUSE OF THIS) so stop making it seem there is none.

Quote from Kerialstraz

It's funny that you Yuuma, Aki and somewheere completely ignore the fact that even LatAm are pissed off at their delay to other players and want to play the game with themselves (which was somewhat possible on ES). When said playerbase agrees with the idea of seperating them from the europe playerbase, then why do you still argue against it?

It's fine if they've the choice to leave or stay

'cause there're still some people who wanna stay and not just play between them don't generalize

Quote from Kerialstraz

It's funny that you Yuuma, Aki and somewheere completely ignore the fact that even LatAm are pissed off at their delay to other players and want to play the game with themselves (which was somewhat possible on ES). When said playerbase agrees with the idea of seperating them from the europe playerbase, then why do you still argue against it? Why do you bring dumb stuff into the equation where it doesn't belong? Is it fun for you to sacrifice your time to get some laughs off of people anger because you can't seem to get it from somewhere else?
You're not even trying to debate things or debunking brought-up arguments, you're only twisting written words into stuff you yourself can use against them. Which, by far, is not impressive or makes you seem like a winner in a debate, because you weren't able to negate their arguments and had to make them agree with your facts.

You should start to either get sociable or actually try to convince the opposing faction with your arguments, otherwise stop commenting any further. It has been stated there is a problem, the problem has been acknowledged by players from europe AND latam (some even DO NOT QUEUE BECAUSE OF THIS) so stop making it seem there is none.

No need to be rude just givin' our opinions

Kerialstraz

Exhale.

You don't get it. Problems are subjectiv. If someone doesn't see something as a problem then thats ok. If he wants to propose his opinion then thats ok. You don't habe the right to judge of someone is allowed to write his opinion based on his perception of a topic.

If you think said opinion doesn't add anything to the topic then please ignore said players (you made a list, although i am only able to find one of them in this thread but /we) and stop fueling useless talks.

The rest of what you said doesn't change the fact that removing said players is not a good solution.

Quote from Kerialstraz

Because you can't fix a technological failure and impossibility without either making kog to recode their entire game or even "discriminate" said playerbase

And since you have the option of

1.) either changing the complete system of the game and

2.) having a loss for GF if anything of your suggestions will happen

what do you think GF will do? Right, nothing at all.

Quote from Kerialstraz

While you think this is "discriminating" of a specific group of players, they themselves are even willing to leave this server IF GF ever transfers them to either a seperate server for their own OR transfer their accounts into an existing publisher in LatAm.

Picture or it never happend. Because in all those "buhu we hate LatAm-Players, they laaaaaaaaaaag ;-;" discussions, I only see germans.

I'd support a second server or account transfer among existing servers (I have even made the latter suggestion myself) under the condition that players must not be forced off of the existing one that they currently use. It should be their free decision to take their character wherever they please and play with whichever community they want (or more cynically pay whichever publisher they want). So far, none of the "ban Mexicans" threads have been about giving them this freedom and supporters of such bans claiming that LatAm people themselves don't want to play under such conditions (sheesh, I wonder why) are just faking concern. You don't really care about LatAm people playing without lag, you only care about the chance that you yourself might one day encounter one if not each and every one of them is purged.

Quote from Comrade Yuri

As far as your "simple fact" is concerned, both lag and specific ping scores have their causes in network delay, which itself is caused by physical and technical limitations (among other problems). Anything born from that is an issue of how the game deals with latency.

Anyway, since we can both agree that the players are not the problem, regardless of our specific look at it, can you tell me why discriminating against said players should be the solution?

If you aknowledge that a high ping is caused by physical and technical limitations, in this case the distance and the currently used internet technology, then why did argue whether there even is any lag?

At least stop the stupid discussion when it comes to that fact.

If you specifically want to argue whether or not that actually is a problem, fine you can do that, because that is subjective.

However you -and everyone else opposed to the idea of a seperate server- have yet to answer my previous question about what the disadvantages are for a seperate server.

As far as i argued in my previous post there are no disadvantages for Lat-Am as opposed to the huge advantages of playing with people from their region and therefore much less distance related lag due to an otherwise unavoidable high ping and the fact that the game is, and will always be, peer-to-peer.

You wanting to keep Lat-Am from having their own server does more harm then the notion of opposing it because it is motivated by rasiscm.

Like i wrote before, do you think Lat-Am players like to play laggy dungeons and pvp with Europeans?

No? Then why are you opposed to the idea of giving them a seperate server?

If it's just to oppose rascism than at least aknowledge that you don't actually give a s**t about Lat-Am players if you otherwise can't give another reason as to why they shouldn't have their own server.

*send this post before being able to read #147.

a extra server where everyone can play on. The right to stay on this server. Seperate queue. Not loosing things they worked hard for.

Sounds decent, since the players have almost no backlash from this idea. Idk about GF thougt.

Can you swap back and forth?

IchBinBlackReborn

I was never arguing the existence or non-existence of lag, I am quite aware that it indeed does exist. However, this discussion and similar discussion are plagued with misunderstandings and fallacies concerning causes and effects, the biggest one being that "laggers cause lag" instead of the other way round, which is deliberately misused to frame the debate in a certain fashion.

While #147 should clear some misunderstandings about my stance, I should perhaps make it clear, that both this thread as well as the suggestion you're talking about have the goal of removing all LatAm players from Europe. While I would support a LatAm server for the sake of the LatAm community that wants it, I do not support it as a means to this goal.

rip

As far as my suggestion goes, people should be allowed to swap back and forth, perhaps with some restriction like "they have to click some buttons and then wait for the next day" if transfers are only processed at certain times due to technical reasons. Other than a specific publisher wanting money there is no reason to bind players to their server.

Yeah, i'm aware. The one arguing the non-existence of lag was mostly your french companion, blatantly lying that she'd never encountered any or close to none lag when playing with Lat-Am or other non-european players and further derailing the discussion with stupidity caused by a lack of knowledge and reading comprehension.

"While I would support a LatAm server for the sake of the LatAm community that wants it, I do not support it as a means to this goal."

Me neither.

As for the "should not be forced" part. That probably won't be enough to stop threads like this.

I'm also pretty sure that on the off chance a seperate server actually happens, GF would reroute players just like NA/Int never giving them a choice.

Swapping servers as you please also won't happen. Even if you'd pay, i'm pretty sure GF doesn't have the manpower and willingness to constantly swap accounts.

I mean, theoretically it could happen. If they had a Mexican friend in the lower 100s as far as interpersonal ping is concerned and simply didn't feel lag in the same way as supporters for this claim do, that could lead them to such claims. Plus there are instances in this game, in which one player might visibly lag, but the game itself still plays smoothly. If you don't play particular attention to that player, you could also see that as some form of them not lagging. Whenever lag is the subject of any debate, we must remind ourselves that people usually mean their experience with lag, which are different things.

There would not be any manpower required to do so, just a protocol, or even better a shared database. That being said, it won't happen because it goes against the profit motive.

Also, I am aware that threads like this won't stop as long as LatAm players remain active, but I'm also aware that threads like this would pop up if they were collectively banned from one day to the next, just with their titles perhaps being less obviously racist.

Let's not use the "Racist" card in this discussion shall we?
The reason for naming specifically a certain region players (Latin Americans in this case) is due to the fact that they are the majority in the server that is supposedly according to many of the players, causing lag issues.

Do those players have to write in this thread to prove it? No.
Do they say it in-game when asked? Yes.
Does it work the other way around (Europeans to Other Region players)? Yes.
Do we need any proof to prove these statistics? No.
Why? Do a reality check and ask people that actually bother answering regarding this. It's plain as the difference between Day and Night, People don't like to have Delay in their gaming Experience.

Other Region players are not ridiculed, they are not in any sort of attacks about their skin or ethnicity.
Racism has absolutely nothing to do with internet connection and delay.

Instead of Latin Americans it could be absolutely almost any region mentioned. Asian, European, Australian, North American or African.

If you have any suggestions how to call specific group of people, apart from what they are officially called world-wide which everyone is doing at the moment, that will not sound racist. Be my guest.

This Threads name is (NON-)European and their ping. Suggesting that its focusing on any player that has high ping together with non-Europeans and Europeans. So, you cannot use any "but Europeans lag too". Yes. We Know. Some Do.
Also very obvious that, because main Elsword EU servers are based in Germany, Europe, mostly anyone would insist that Elsword EU is meant to be played by Europeans, thus why other region players are the one being in question regarding this and not European players.
Do not misunderstand the statement above. I do not say that other region players cannot play in Elsword EU, I'm saying that they have no actual rights to say "this is our server" provided they are nowhere near Europe nor do they own GameForge. Since believe or not some other region players say that along with "Get out of our server".

It's proven fact that anyone that is from another region than the server WILL HAVE CONSTANT Medium to High Latency.
While players from same region as the server will have Low To Medium Latency with OCCASIONAL Latency Spikes.

This of course is important factor too since some objects in game are Server Based rather than Client based. If you do not understand what I mean
Server based ->Connected to Germany
Client Based -> Connected to Players Location

It works the same way with Peer To Peer connection.
Another Region Player will have constant Medium to High Latency when playing with different regions player.
While same region players will have Low to Medium Latency with occasional Latency Spikes.

I made the important keywords bold if you did not understand. By that I mean, stop with the points that everyone lags. Yes, they do, but their scope of lag is a huge difference if you compare the two.

Now then, please keep this on-topic and avoid any sort of comments that suggest that something that is not Racist is Racist or vice-versa.
I tried to be as Neutral as possible towards this, with explaining few things that people seem to forget to mention.
No, I'm not against any suggestions.
No, I'm not for any suggestions.
I'm just a poor peasant that shall wait for GameForges judgement. Do they do something regard this or not.

Quote from Memoritter

This Threads name is (NON-)European and their ping. Suggesting that its focusing on any player that has high ping together with non-Europeans and Europeans.

This thread's name is a dog whistle, whose purpose is to suggest that non-Europeans lag harder than Europeans, which therefore makes them inferior players.

Quote from Memoritter

I do not say that other region players cannot play in Elsword EU, I'm saying that they have no actual rights to say "this is our server" provided they are nowhere near Europe nor do they own GameForge.

Are Europeans allowed to claim rights to "their server" in your opinion? None of us own Gameforge, and I assume most of us don't even hold shares, hence we all have the same right to be at this server (which according to ToS is none, but I think you get the point).

Quote from Memoritter

By that I mean, stop with the points that everyone lags. Yes, they do, but their scope of lag is a huge difference if you compare the two.

Thanks, oh wise super game master, but here's the thing: People don't care. Whenever there is lag, be it a spike or constant latency, people will cry foul and try to ban players on shaky ground. That has been true pretty much since the conception of competitive online gaming.

Btw. there's nothing racist about using "lagtino" as a slur.

Veltarox | PM sent due flaming

Quote from Memoritter

Racism has absolutely nothing to do with internet connection and delay.

It's not about racism but more about discrimination there ''Discrimination : the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people''

You're suggesting to exclude non european because of their high ping hehe you're generalizing once again, plus do not forget that they may have played on this server longer than you do, so you still have no right to push them to leave if they wanna stay

Quote from Memoritter

I'm saying that they have no actual rights to say "this is our server" provided they are nowhere near Europe nor do they own GameForge. Since believe or not some other region players say that along with "Get out of our server".

Since other region players say that we should do the same huh ? Just think about it if you were on another server for any reasons and some people is trying to push you to leave, would you appreciate it ? No one will, you're free to decide if you wanna stay or leave right ?

Just let them chose for themselves then

Quote from Comrade Yuri

Quote from Memoritter

This Threads name is (NON-)European and their ping. Suggesting that its focusing on any player that has high ping together with non-Europeans and Europeans.

This thread's name is a dog whistle, whose purpose is to suggest that non-Europeans lag harder than Europeans, which therefore makes them inferior players.

No it's not. No matter how much try to force this, that statement is wrong and the argument invalid. People have given reasons why they act like they do. Stop your thought-terminating cliché and start understanding the other side or keep quite. If you don't be prepared to be ignored.

Quote from Comrade Yuri

Quote from Memoritter

I do not say that other region players cannot play in Elsword EU, I'm saying that they have no actual rights to say "this is our server" provided they are nowhere near Europe nor do they own GameForge.

Are Europeans allowed to claim rights to "their server" in your opinion?

Yes they do. Want to change that? Give a reason why they should, and yes not all people are "do-gooder". Egoism exits and it's not automatically a bad thing because somebody says so.

Quote from Comrade Yuri

Quote from Memoritter

By that I mean, stop with the points that everyone lags. Yes, they do, but their scope of lag is a huge difference if you compare the two.

Thanks, oh wise super game master, but here's the thing: People don't care. Whenever there is lag, be it a spike or constant latency, people will cry foul and try to ban players on shaky ground. That has been true pretty much since the conception of competitive online gaming.

And you won't make them care like this. Proof that they are wrong first before start throwing around insults. An individual want's something gone because it causes a bad gaming experience. Should you listen to them? if they can give a explanation why, yes. That has been done here and you are ignoring it purposely to play "do-gooder".

In all honest, why should you be friendly? You could just say kick them out and be over with it. Yet people try to find a compromise, so both sides can be happy. However, every suggest and opinion gets rejected by you. That's not helpful. You are a nuisance. Stop that.

Quote from MissMary

Quote from Memoritter

Racism has absolutely nothing to do with internet connection and delay.

It's not about racism but more about discrimination there ''Discrimination : the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people''

You're suggesting to exclude non european because of their high ping hehe you're generalizing once again, plus do not forget that they may have played on this server longer than you do, so you still have no right to push them to leave if they wanna stay

So you are saying this:
KR is discriminating Other Region players because they can't play on their server due to needing KR Identification.
NA is discriminating for implementing redirection to Elsword INT, even though you can still bypass it.

Let's get this straight shall we, something that has been officially done is purely Discrimination but we overlook that and go to places where it has not happened and try to "stop" that discrimination.

Oh I do perfectly believe some played longer than me, since I played in UK most of the time, apart also a little bit in NA server when UK server was not even there yet.
but am I saying they should be forced out? no.
Are they supposed to be pushed away? no. not up to us to decide.
Now, I have no idea where do you think I said "away with non-europeans". If it was by me mentioning the Latency levels. No, I couldn't care less I have good enough internet to not get constant 150 Ping Players. Sure there are lots of them but since I don't queue at night time I don't meet those.

Quote from MissMary

Quote from Memoritter

I'm saying that they have no actual rights to say "this is our server" provided they are nowhere near Europe nor do they own GameForge. Since believe or not some other region players say that along with "Get out of our server".

Since other region players say that we should do the same huh ? Just think about it if you were on another server for any reasons and some people is trying to push you to leave, would you appreciate it ? No one will, you're free to decide if you wanna stay or leave right ?

Just let them chose for themselves then

Hahaha, you know what is funny. I actually would leave if they asked me to leave. Just like I left NA because people in PvP couldn't stomach me and my poor network connection.
And I legitimately appreciate it. If they did not I would not have found out Elsword UK has launched. Thus I would have never played there. Thus I would never be here to begin with.
if I generalize it to many people and not me specifically , yes, I can half agree, because there are tons of people that feel upset over an insult that is not even meant towards them or is even coincidental in some cases.
There is a main issue with what you're saying that people have a choice if they want to stay or not.
If we put it in reality. You have a choice to continue working or quit. But not when you are about to get fired for w/e reason.
But hey, we're talking about Internet game! how dare people mention reality!?
Please stop. There are things that are ethical, I respect that you are being kind and respectful of others and people that are being in your mind discriminated, though reality is different there is no person on this earth that is not being discriminated. Alone or Bundled up into one Vague Given name.

Quote from Comrade Yuri

Quote from Memoritter

This Threads name is (NON-)European and their ping. Suggesting that its focusing on any player that has high ping together with non-Europeans and Europeans.

This thread's name is a dog whistle, whose purpose is to suggest that non-Europeans lag harder than Europeans, which therefore makes them inferior players.

You already got answered by Nitros. Also There is clear distinction between having the round brackets and none. Having the brackets on (NON-) basically means that non-europeans are included together with Europeans. Having no brackets would generalize it to only non-europeans.

Big difference. But you're so blind with prejudice to defend non-europeans and the fact that whole discussion revolved around other region players that you did not consider it that way.

nevertheless, thanks at least for trying to defend them. I'm sure those non-europeans that actually don't want to leave or be kicked out because of lag issues will be grateful to some degree.

Quote from Comrade Yuri

Quote from Memoritter

I do not say that other region players cannot play in Elsword EU, I'm saying that they have no actual rights to say "this is our server" provided they are nowhere near Europe nor do they own GameForge.

Are Europeans allowed to claim rights to "their server" in your opinion? None of us own Gameforge, and I assume most of us don't even hold shares, hence we all have the same right to be at this server (which according to ToS is none, but I think you get the point).

You missed the point. The point was they are free to play as long as they behave. Did I suggest that Europeans own the server? No. I did not. Though if you want me to touch on this... GameForge are European, so server is owned by Europeans. But that does not matter. Why you may ask? Because they are a company. They are thinking what will profit them more as a publisher.

Quote from Comrade Yuri

Quote from Memoritter

By that I mean, stop with the points that everyone lags. Yes, they do, but their scope of lag is a huge difference if you compare the two.

Thanks, oh wise super game master, but here's the thing: People don't care. Whenever there is lag, be it a spike or constant latency, people will cry foul and try to ban players on shaky ground. That has been true pretty much since the conception of competitive online gaming.

Funny, during all these years, whenever I PvPed someone and they had medium ping. I still enjoyed it and did not say anything about it. Are you sure you should be generalizing all players like that? Yes, Indeed there will be those that whine about it but not all of them. Those that are frustrated over anything over 50ping will be, yea. Anyone else no.

From my great experience as oh so wise super game master, I had more players having issues with insults during/after PvP than lag. That is solely from PMs to me...

Ah, also, I'll quote myself since..somehow people still think I'm All-In to kick out Non-Europeans

Quote from Memoritter

I tried to be as Neutral as possible towards this, with explaining few things that people seem to forget to mention.
No, I'm not against any suggestions.
No, I'm not for any suggestions.
I'm just a poor peasant that shall wait for GameForges judgement. Do they do something regard this or not.

There we go.

Quote from Memoritter

So you are saying this: KR is discriminating Other Region players because they can't play on their server due to needing KR Identification.

Indeed, they are. They're especially discriminating against the EU region by not giving them an up-to-date server.

Quote from Memoritter

There is clear distinction between having the round brackets and none. Having the brackets on (NON-) basically means that non-europeans are included together with Europeans. Having no brackets would generalize it to only non-europeans.

Big difference. But you're so blind with prejudice to defend non-europeans and the fact that whole discussion revolved around other region players that you did not consider it that way.

What the…? Did you even read the original post? I can't blame you for not reading the German original, since not everyone in this thread knows German, but the fact of the matter remains, that this discussion is mainly about the difference between Europeans and non-Europeans when it comes to lag and trying to use that difference as a justification for a non-European ban or similar suggestions. I highly suggest actually reading the proposals and rhetoric behind them before judging those who oppose you as "blind defenders of non-europeans".

Quote from Memoritter

You missed the point. The point was they are free to play as long as they behave. Did I suggest that Europeans own the server? No. I did not. Though if you want me to touch on this... GameForge are European, so server is owned by Europeans. But that does not matter. Why you may ask? Because they are a company. They are thinking what will profit them more as a publisher.

The server is not owned by Europeans as a collective, but a German company. Using that "logic" as a justification, I could also kick UK or France, as certain German players surely want to. Also, you're rehashing cheap arguments that others have already made better, arguing that I somehow missed the point when you're not even so sure about what point you were trying to make.

Quote from Memoritter

Funny, during all these years, whenever I PvPed someone and they had medium ping. I still enjoyed it and did not say anything about it. Are you sure you should be generalizing all players like that? Yes, Indeed there will be those that whine about it but not all of them. Those that are frustrated over anything over 50ping will be, yea. Anyone else no.

I was not generalizing all players, I was generalizing the kind that uses lag as an excuse to do away with players that annoy them. You should be able to infer on your own the higher tendency of "those frustrated over anything over 50 ping" making such suggestions rather than those still enjoying and not saying anything about medium ping. It all boils down to some Germans camping in Frankfurt to get the bestest latency.

You're not adding in anything ground-breaking, we've been discussing most of what you've said for 8 pages. By the way, you claim to be neutral, but your words clearly swing one way.

Quote from ian

the bracket was implying that not ONLY non-european players are lagging

Which would support the point I made ages ago, that simply banning non-Europeans does not solve your problem, but with the start post claiming it's mainly LatAm players my other point still stands.

The further discussion will lead us nowhere and all arguments have been used. The thread is closed