(non-)european players and their ping

Edited by Maeve: OFF TOPIC

You really want to know how i would deal with that personally, without taking anything else, beside my own opinion into consideration?

Here u go. Like with any troll ,or anyone else who fails to heed my first and second warning, remove them and don't let them come back.

Considering that they know of their lags and don't care if they cause a bad playing experience for everyone else, i would hold them at fault for their behaviour, and therefore would remove them without second thought.

But first of all, my personal opinion does not reflect the opinion of everyone, and second, it is not my decision to make. Overruling statements that don't align with mine is narrow-minded. So what remains as a possible solution, if removal is not what GF wants? Having a sorting feature for ping-range seems the most acceptable. But since this is certainly not my field of expertise, i have absolutly no idea if or how is that achieveable and have to rely on GF's und KoG's decision for that.

So in the meantime, it would seem obvious to adapt to the current situation, until it's sorted out.

Quote from Comrade Yuri

If lag in your eyes justifies racist policies, that's your moral opinion. If Gameforge (or KoG) does not implement said racist policies out of capitalist motivations, that is their choice. I can only claim support or lack thereof towards such policies as well as my personal reasons to do so. As all reasons laid out so far are highly subjective to begin with, all of us are simply making different moral arguments within different moral frameworks.

Again, noone said or made any racist suggestion. You are the only one who trys to make this threads sounds racist by spamming your racist references and expression. So far you havnt contributed any solution to this problem , except for entertaining yourselfs by dropping some racist punchlines and claiming everyone else is racist !(?)

i would like to provide some video evidence of people abusing their laggs in PvP and still queueing up even though they know about it after several people pmed them or even Shouting them out on megaphone chat.
But i am afraid that it would be unappropriated to post them here. This is somehing we should deal with support instead.
We are here to disscuss the lag issue itself and not exposing other players,

The thread starts of by claiming non-Europeans to be a problem in and of themselves and you yourself presuppose them to be one for the sake of your argumentation. I don't claim you to be racist, I claim you to be in support of racist policy and whether that's due to racism or not is for you to decide. If you think supporting racist policies makes you racist and you don't like being racist, you can be less racist at least with respect to your own logic by not supporting racist policies.

You see players playing despite lag when they themselves have no choice but to accept it to be a deliberate attempt at hindering your gameplay, when they could just as well be matched with accepting players in both PvE and PvP and their experience is far more worsened by lag as it is not only more prevalent, but also they themselves are the victim of blame far more often than you suffer from it. How can you claim your lag experience to be worse than theirs?

One can simply stay out of que.

When I tested around on servers I was not being native on, I stayed out of any kind of que. I always perceived this to be common human sense. If one know that oneself got some handicap, one should not put a burden on anyone who does not consent on not having a problem with it. Because if one just do whatever oneself want, this will force everything - in this case some partially game-mechanic crippling lag - down anyones throat who comes into contact with that person.

Quote from Comrade Yuri

I don't claim you to be racist, I claim you to be in support of racist policy and whether that's due to racism or not is for you to decide. If you think supporting racist policies makes you racist and you don't like being racist, you can be less racist at least with respect to your own logic by not supporting racist policies.

You are still claiming me to be racist and me supporting racist policys even though noone, except for sharoonas recent post, made any. And i didnt support her suggestion .

Bewear could you moderate this thread a little bit mores trictly, since Comrade Yuri is trying to drive this into offtopic. He is alraedy known to force threads to get closed in our old forum.

One can if one wants to. Since you see other servers like KR or NA as a test environment for some features, you have a different view points than LatAm people who as far as their personal server choice is regarded "live" in Europe by virtue of not having any other server with their geared Level 99 3rd job character on them. If they had and regarded Europe as test server (for whichever reason) and went by your logic, they wouldn't queue and you could not complain about them. That would reduce the problems to LatAm people which you notice queueing, but it still does not prove malice on their part.

NandaKore To clarify, I regard systematic removing LatAm people on the base that they are LatAm (or the lag excuse) as a racist policy. If you are not in support of such a suggestion, that was a misunderstanding on my part and I apologize for that. And even if you do, I did not call you racist. Since you've already taken that topic to private messages, though, I'd clarify it there for the sake of the discussion here.

Ketsuekii

About common sense, I wonder how to make them understand that, if some already fail to zip it even after getting warned a couple times about it.

But you are right. It is completly normal for me to stay out of queue's, so long i'm aware that my connection is currently unstable. I had that issue in the past, and got kicked out of PvP a couple times. Everytime that happened, i stayed out of all queue's until my connection was stable again (this is no longer a problem, as i've upgraded my Internet to much higher power).

But how do you make those understand, that they cause problems to everyone else with their distance lag? The rules do not punish anyone for lag, so long those are not caused intentionally. Which brings us back to the decisive evidence of Griefplay actions. You have to get proof, that they are aware of it and abusing it on purpose. The only ones, who will propably be able to collect such evidence are those, who play a lot of PvP. But to be truly decisive, those player's would have to admit that they are indeed aware and abusing it on purpose. Just seeing a laggy match won't count as decisive i'm afraid.

So as an example, if i were in the position to have the duty to judge and giving a verdict about such cases following the rules that has been set here about it. I would definitly need a Screenshot of the Player in question admitting to his awareness and Videomaterial of the PvP match itself to see the lagging that comes with it. So long you would submit only the recording of the PvP Match, it would not suffice to make a ruling, because it would leave room of doubt about the Players motive, meaning if he is aware of it and abuses it or not. If you submit just a screenshot of him admitting it instead, then the proof of the rule violation would miss. I wouldn't be able to rule out, that he just said it for fun, therefore not being able to reach the conclusion of griefplay, but rather him just lying, which would propably not give the same punishment as griefplay.

This is just an example though. I don't know how our GM's would handle such a case.

It is common sense to myself to stay out of any que in general if I feel like my connection anywhere is laggy right then.

That goes for EU too. I had some difficult times around when using my old provider, causing my internet to spike all about the place, which caused me to not even join my friends even though they said they would not mind. It is all about attitude. And as I see it, lots of people who deal with those issues just don't care. Lots of people I came into contact with had an attitude of 'well, this is my server, I can do what I want'.

Since the rules do not state anything, it is their free right to use and abuse what they got. And it is literally anyone that comes into contact with it, that will suffer from that - regardless of PvP or PvE.

Quote from Ketsuekii

It is common sense to myself to stay out of any que in general if I feel like my connection anywhere is laggy right then.

That goes for EU too. I had some difficult times around when using my old provider, causing my internet to spike all about the place, which caused me to not even join my friends even though they said they would not mind. It is all about attitude. And as I see it, lots of people who deal with those issues just don't care. Lots of people I came into contact with had an attitude of 'well, this is my server, I can do what I want'.

Since the rules do not state anything, it is their free right to use and abuse what they got. And it is literally anyone that comes into contact with it, that will suffer from that - regardless of PvP or PvE.

Right, and if i would pass a verdict based on my own opinion instead of the shaky rules, this attitude you speak of would cause me to kick them out immediatly. People can be selfish for themselves for all i care. But if you interact with other People, and give a damn about their playing experience just to have fun on your own, then you may as well leave and play with the dirt on the street by yourself. That's how i see it.

There is this one sentence that pops up in the loading screen from time to time i believe? Being mindful of other Player's it was? That is pretty much a baserule which makes the foundation of all other rules, and should be respected by everyone without exceptions. Hence the reason, why my personal verdict would be this unforgiving.

And yet the fact remains that GF makes the final decision about it, so adapting to the situation or not playing the game until it has been dealt with is the way to go.

I want to remind you to stick to the topic, and don't forget your language, because I have some doubts whether this discussion will be an arguement, and you are here to discuss

Quote from Ketsuekii

It is common sense to myself to stay out of any que in general if I feel like my connection anywhere is laggy right then.

Emphasis mine. Your thinking is not the same as everyone else's thinking and even with dystopian levels of mind control that would not change.

With regards to your comparison, the situation is still different. Not only could you place your hopes in another provider, this provider was in fact a solution to your problems. Many people out there face situations, in which their provider is the only option, even within Europe. The material conditions do not bend that fast to their minds, rather their minds bend to their conditions. When your environment forces you to accept lag as a reality, you eventually come to the realization that it is one. You will place some burden on others, but will it seem like a big burden to you after having suffered both longer and harder?

We can't solve lag problems by unjustly throwing people out. We can compensate lag itself, there are some techniques for that. With respect to PvP making the difference in lag sensitivity among characters more equal would solve a lot of problems related to "but they're abusing lag". If characters are equally good under lag, and not regarding the gear issue, we would find a lot less lag induced toxicity among players. The blame of a win made under lag could then be put on skill or luck. Outside of the game we would have to work to provide fast Internet access to everyone around the globe, which is both a political and scientific task.

Edit by Maeve: Please, let's focus on lag and not on things that don't take place on this forum.

As for solutions, I doubt that KoG is gonna change it's system for our server specifically. Seperating queues or denying accsess to queues entirely based on ping is therefore unlikely to happen imo. The only kind of solution I can see implemented would be something that GF themselves can do, for example seperating players and putting them on different servers based on (most used) IP-Address, similar to the way NA is handling the INT-Server.

Edited by Maeve: Talking about such things are forbidden

Quote from Comrade Yuri

Regional filters will not solve any issue you have with lag, you will only project them on other players. Maybe then it's Africans in France who are not worthy. Maybe it's Canadians very very loyal to the Queen. Maybe it's UK entirely because "Brexit means Brexit" or Swiss folks for not being a part of the EU. Lag will be the reason by which people should be banned according to your opinion, without any of you ever addressing lag itself as an issue. And as much as you'd like to think that, laggers don't cause lag, lag causes laggers.

Do you have any idea what you're even talking about? Are you aware of why distance lag is called distance lag? Do you know the basic relation of longer distance requiring more time to get information across? I believe I already explained in another thread that the distance from one end of Europe to the other is only around half the distance of Frankfurt (Server-Location) to South America. In other words, Lag within the EU is not the problem since the distance is way shorter. It only becomes a problem when the distance grows out of proportion and that is the case here. Even a third-grader understands he'll need more time to walk 1km than when walking 100m. It really isn't a difficult concept to grasp yet you seem to be completely denying the influence distance has on the connection-speed and thereby on the lag in the game.

We don't want to force anyone out, we just want to play in peace and in the way it was intended!! Just because you keep ignoring the problem doesn't magically solve it.

Now, if you can tell me whether wizards in Frankfurt decided, that it'd be a good idea to make travels longer over distance or whether that's a natural phenomenon that people living apart of each other can not really influence, you can win the Elsword Board Price of Astounding Science AND Philosophy. And lag within EU is a problem if we let the people complaining about it before the server merge decide.

Comrade Yuri if we could influence this we wouldn't have this problem to begin with. So yeah, it's a natural phenomenon like floods, earthquakes and volcanic eruptions. Though like with every other natural disaster, there are ways to contain and reduce the effects of the problem. This is what we're here to discuss.

And no, lag within Europe isn't a problem, at least not one of the same scale. It's way more contained since it only affects select individuals with a very bad connection/other people using the connection at the same time. I've played quite some time with a pretty bad connection as well, however even that is still enough to play Elsword without any noticable delay as long as no other person is downloading something. It's not a systematic issue affecting a quite large playerbase as it is the case with distance lag.

You should be aware that any lag whatsoever, be its cause distance or any other, will for those feeling that it exceeds their threshold be a cause to call for bans, no matter how minor the issue might seem for a spectator. Floods, earthquakes and volcanic eruptions are on their own harmful, but the humanitarian crises following them are worse.

Quote from Comrade Yuri

You should be aware that any lag whatsoever, be its cause distance or any other, will for those feeling that it exceeds their threshold be a cause to call for bans, no matter how minor the issue might seem for a spectator.

It doesn't need to be bearable for everyone, just for the general public. That is currently not the case.

I'm also getting tired of debating who is at fault here. If you don't agree with the proposed solutions to the problem, propose your own one. So far, all I've seen from you is destructive criticism simply for the sake of criticising without giving any suggestions as to how the problem could be handled better. Tbh I'm kinda mad at myself for even trying to argue with someone, whose arguments are about the same level as someone proposing the earth is flat.

The existence of the problem is something everyone (maybe except you?) acknowledges by this point, even Gameforge. So please, give an actual suggestion and explain how you'd tackle this problem. As I said before, ignoring it won't solve it.

Edited by Maeve: there's no place for such comments.