(non-)european players and their ping

Quote from Comrade Yuri

But all you do when shown that lag is a result of physics [...]

Wow, so you agree on that part. So you want to solve the problem by bypassing physics? Well good luck with that, I'd rather focus on realistic solutions. Things that can actually be done to solve the problem instead of wishful thinking and throwing insults around. The code itself doesn't really suck, it does it's job fairly well after all. It's just simply not designed for a community living half the globe away from each other. Also, due to the game beeing around for 11 years in KR now, there's very little you can do about the coding at this point. You'd have to rewrite it from sratch wich will more likely than not result in the game becoming unplayable. It would be more efficient to produce a new game at that point. The most you're gonna get are safety-net functions that remove the problem source, but that's not what you want after all. So no, what you brought to the table aren't solutions, it's idealistic thinking of how it should be in a perfect world. Reality is different though, instead of praying to god to move a mountain, start digging.

Focus on what you actually can do and compromise.

Let's make it easy for the flat-earth SJW in this thread...

A ShortSummary on how you should choose which games you want to start:

Where do you live?

Austria.

What Languages do you talk?

German, English and maybe others.

You are interested in a new MMORPG. What do you do?

a) Check out if it's aviable in your language. (You chose the german Elsword Server.)

b) Check out if this game is made for the Region you live in or support your Region. (Servers are in Germany which is your neighboor country.)

c) Are you able to play the Game without disturbing the experience of other Players? ( mostly)

Now let's do it for the Laggtinos:

Where do they live?

Mexico.

What Languages do their talk?

Spanish and maybe English.

You are interested in a new MMORPG. What do you do?

a) Check out if it's aviable in your language. ( They chose the spanish Elsword Server.)

b) Check ouf if this game is made for the Region you live in or support your Region. ( It's across the ocean so distance Lags are almost guaranteed to happen.)

c) Are you able to play the Game without disturbing the experience of other Players? ()

What should you do if you have 2 Thumbs down?

Quit the Game or find a Guild with People from your Area to play with so that you can prevent Lag. (The second Option would be the easiest and most comfortable for everyone, because the mexican Player will have less Laggs as well.)

What do Mexicans do?

Yolo! Just jump into the PvE Queue and PvP and disturb the Players for this Region.

But we have a Bonus round for the Mexican Players! There actually is an Server/a Companyfor their Region but it doesn't support spanish. But there is also NA with the english Language; which is an easy language to learn but okay learning Skills are different for every Person.

So they had the option to choose a Server next to them all along! Unbelievable! And they also have the Option to start Petitions or just... I don't know... ask the Company for a spanish Interface? They could ask Gameforge for help and.. I don't know.. maybe sell the spanish Interface to them (not the Server) and let them have 2 Languages for 1 Server just how we have 5 Languages for 1 Server?

__________________________

I would support a seperated Queue for PvE and PvP for the mexican Players as well. It would be cruel to ban People who had build their Account here; even though it would be their fault for choosing a Server which is too far away from then. People with similair Areas should be matched together so that their game Experience would positively increase as well, because they aren't matched with "evil Laggtinos"/"evil Europeans". Everyone would benefit from it. The mexican Players aren't that much of a Minority aren't they?

The "ohh but then we would have matching circles with Frankfurt Inhabitans Elitists, folllowed by Mannheim Elitists and then everyone who doesn't live in Frankfurt will be excluded some day" >Argument< is just ridiculous.... The Frankfurt Servers are strong enough to support entire Europe (just like they did before the Server Merge) and this kind of thinking is just spreading unnessecary Fear.

This whole discussion has nothing to do with Racism... It's just stupid to bring Racism into this topic.

And yes I don't support DE, FR .... Players playing in NA or KR, because it's the same problem for me.

Renn so wait, KoG produces efficient™ yet not maintainable code, therefore fixing it is not a solution? Sheesh, I wonder what other features this code possesses. Also nice way of dodging the bullet. "Let's address the underlying issue." – "No, you can't, we must ban them!" If someone suggests to ban all Mexicans and my attitude towards that is "can we please not?", we won't reach any agreement by banning half the Mexicans or peacefully™ banning them.

Also, just to make it clear, I never claimed lag not to be a result of physics or material conditions. However, even after pointing out the arrows of causality, you went on to make the claim, that lag suddenly springs into existence when you get matched against people from LatAm, in the German thread. I think you should ask yourself how those views fit together.

Now, I am going to make an unpopular opinion, a really bold claim. I expect misunderstanding and ridicule and the moderators are going to hate me for doing that. Some may find this trivial, some hard to understand, some correct, some wrong. Here it goes: People from the LatAm community do not cause lag.

Nexxon If the LatAm community makes a suggestion, in which they demand a non-lagging spanish client from Gameforge, you can support their suggestions. But even if you are fluent in Spanish, something tells me that that's not what you're ranting about.

As far as your three point rating scheme is concerned, why did you choose those three and not any other consideration, that one would make? I can tell you the one thought I have before running any game and that is: Do I expect to have fun playing it? I think many of you do the same, whatever factors you include in your critical assessment beyond that is deeply personal. Also, you will disturb players and not just through lag.

Your assessment of my elitist argument comes from no background. Never did I claim the servers to be weak, that's literally not the point. The servers can be as strong as they want and the people as close to it as possible, their experience if something sometime just takes a little bit longer than they want to will be one filled with rage. This is especially true if the player perceives a game to be lost due to that one lag spike, even if the game itself was fine by most others. My point is that elitists have always claimed certain people to be too laggy for "their" game and wanted to remove them for being "disturbing" and you can look back in the history of many online games to see "ban laggers" suggestions along with different and highly subjective standards™ for good ping.

The argument however, that you or others who make it deserve this game or any other more than someone with a slightly (or even strongly) weaker connection is ridiculous. It is not even grounded in anecdotal evidence, it's just calling for supremacy.

Quote from Comrade Yuri

so wait, KoG produces efficient™ yet not maintainable code, therefore fixing it is not a solution? Sheesh, I wonder what other features this code possesses. Also nice way of dodging the bullet. "Let's address the underlying issue." – "No, you can't, we must ban them!" If someone suggests to ban all Mexicans and my attitude towards that is "can we please not?", we won't reach any agreement by banning half the Mexicans or peacefully™ banning them.

Also, just to make it clear, I never claimed lag not to be a result of physics or material conditions. However, even after pointing out the arrows of causality, you went on to make the claim, that lag suddenly springs into existence when you get matched against people from LatAm, in the German thread. I think you should ask yourself how those views fit together.

Now, I am going to make an unpopular opinion, a really bold claim. I expect misunderstanding and ridicule and the moderators are going to hate me for doing that. Some may find this trivial, some hard to understand, some correct, some wrong. Here it goes: People from the LatAm community do not cause lag.

Let's say it would be possible to fix the code, how would you make it less lag-sensitive? The issue is the peer-to-peer system elsword uses so what do you want to replace it with? Handing all the calculations over to the server? That would work for us but our lagging friends will have little to laugh about then. Just imagine how this game would feel if you had a delay of ~1s on your characters movement. So that would most likely result in the game becoming unplayable for those groups, wich would be no different from "peacefully banning" them. So again, I'd love to hear your professional input at how you'd actually go about it.

But first, let me explain what is (most likely) the current situation: The network-code has been written at the very beginning of Elsword, so it's been completed for at least 11 years now. Afterwards, a lot of systems where built using this code as a basis. Furthermore, it's highly unlikely that any of the original creators of that code are still working on Elsword, maybe not even at KoG anymore. So not only would you have to change the network-code but also every other function of the game that is relying on it. And you better don't miss one or the game might not work anymore. On top of that, you need to do that without knowing anything about what you're working with beforehand so someone would have to familiarize themselves in-depth with the structure again. No company in the world is dumb enough to expend that many ressources to change something, wich is only performing badly when used in way that was not intended in the first place.

Long story short: A change in the network-code will not happen, no matter how much you wish for it. And even at the off-chance that it did, it still wouldn't fix the problem. The only real way to get rid of distance lag would be to increase the speed of the internet as a whole, all around the world. I'll let you figure out how likely that's gonna happen.

So as long as distance lag is still a thing, the only way to deal with it is to seperate by region thereby preventing people far away from each other of encountering themselves. There is simply no other physically possible and economically sensical solution to this problem. Unless of course, you can provide one with a little more depth to it than just saying "we need to get rid of lag itself easy solved kappa".

Then how do you address lag programmatically, while keeping in mind the costs? You can't fix latency, you can only reduce it's effect. This is already done in PvE and PvP by simply guessing what is going to happen. You can actually google how action based games deal with the latency when it comes to online connections. This isn't something you can simply fix, as it isn't a bug. It's something that's just there.

Renn You do know that P2P systems can be of different quality? The current way of handling lag arose from the issues of the client-server model and afterwards the issues of the pure P2P model. It didn't arise from people claiming "These people lag and that's not within our design, screw it, ban them!"

Again, you're presupposing KoG's code to be a mess, in which case it should be rewritten regardless of other issues. After that is done, the extent to which other changes can be made depends solely on the interface.

Nitros Well, thanks for pointing that out. We're dealing with issues that arise from the illusion the game provides you with clashing with the actual reality of the game state, i.e. mostly players and mobs not getting hit when they should. For PvE I don't think lag swallowing any attack ever in such a way is a good idea. People would be more happy getting invisible assistance rather than invisible blockades. We should also deal with lag at synchronization points to some degree. In PvP it's a matter of affected classes / play styles, so we'd have to balance w.r.t. lag.

I don't think it matters if this is client-server or P2P. Even in a client-server model, the server would just act as a super peer with a predefined location . If you sync it by the server, there is a chance you get "ghost hits" as you can experience when playing SoulWorker. It may also make it unplayable with too much distance lag efficiently achieving the same thing as blocking the players, which we don't want to do, just with much higher cost.

I am not sure if an acknowledgement model even works for Elsword. The game might be to fast past for that. By the time the acknowledgement comes back the game is already quite a few steps ahead of the original situation.

Again, I'm not advocating client-server and I am aware of its effects of shadowbanning people.

True, it will certainly not work in all cases. But if you're at location L hitting mob M and some other player is at L' also hitting M, by the time you get the packet from the other player saying that they hit M, you can in many cases just roll with it (assuming such a packet exists in the first place). Same way on the other side. If you deal 100 and someone else deals 100, by the time both of you learn of each other, you will at least have dealt 200 together. Granted, "just rolling with it" has some security implications as well, which we'd have to take into consideration. In particular, people could cheat themselves through the game by packet spoofing.

Quote from Comrade Yuri

If lag in your eyes justifies racist policies, that's your moral opinion. If Gameforge (or KoG) does not implement said racist policies out of capitalist motivations, that is their choice. I can only claim support or lack thereof towards such policies as well as my personal reasons to do so. As all reasons laid out so far are highly subjective to begin with, all of us are simply making different moral arguments within different moral frameworks.

Edit by Maeve: Let's focus ONLY on topic. Don't talk about personal situations.

Edit by Maeve: SPAM. Please focus on topic.

Quote from Darkaigirl

You are interested in a new MMORPG. What do you do?

a) Check out if it's aviable in your language. ( You chose the german Elsword Server.)

b) Check out if this game is made for the Region you live in or support your Region. ( Servers are in Germany which is your neighboor country.)

c) Are you able to play the Game without disturbing the experience of other Players? ( mostly)

For real now: who decides to play a game based on these three criterias? The frist question about the language might be true, but the other two? I don't think so. When I started to play the game, the only thought I had was "this seems to be an Anime MMO, that might be fun to play". And that's it.

Quote from Comrade Yuri

Did you just skip over ~1.5 pages using the platform's default as a measure just to insult both sides of the discussion without bringing any solution of your own while judging others on that basis? I'm not up to date on how enlightened centrists view themselves, on the scale from small brain to galaxy brain, where would you put yourself based on that post?

Edit by Maeve: inappropriate words

Comrade Yuri

If you want to blame yourself for being such an "Elitist" with a good internet reception, then you are free to do so. We others don't, because we are able to understand that it's best if people pick Servers based on their Region or at least get matched with People from their side of the Globe. Just please stop spamming this thread with nonsense Solutions that require to change the entire Game to the Point where it woudl be better to program Elsword 2.0 and hopefully transfer every current Account to it. Check the current Situation and propose a realistic Solution...

Akichan

Yeah I did so too. I was interested in the game, saw that it was avaible in German and that it was published from the same Company as NosTale (my previous MMORPG). Well seeing that it was from the same Company was propably the first thing but who cares about the Details? But I would had quit the game or looked for another Server if I wouldn't had been able to play it without constant Laggs. How are you enjoying a Game where you only play picture to picture instead of moving Frames? I definetly wouldn't enjoy it. I would then had registered to the Board to ask what Options I would have based on the Country I live in. Isn't this something obvious to do?

It's not like the Laggs suddenly appeared like a wild Pokémon after reaching lv. 99 with a 3rd Job Character and whatever Equipment or Avatar they had farmed until then. They definetly would had been there since the very beginning of the Game or at least when they got to an more lively Area with more active Players to notice that the Laggs are constant. I can't say what Level Area this might be, because I don't know how lively or dead the different Areas were in [ES]Elsword before the Server Merge.

Edit Truzzetto :

Not every german is like that... This user got permanently banned twice in the german Board so what do you expect?

I understand that my distance to Frankfurt does not make me in any way superior to other players playing the same game. How is that "elitist"? How is that "shaming myself"? What does any of that have to do with gender or one's perception thereof?

If you want to address the issue of lag itself, do that. If you want to implement supremacist policies of any kind, be open about that. Don't claim to solve "lag" when all you're "solving" is people you dislike (partly) due to lag.

Quote from Darkaigirl

Edit Truzzetto :

Not every german is like that... This user got permanently banned twice in the german Board so what do you expect?

I hope God will bless you, Darkraigirl, with a happy and long life.

Quote from Comrade Yuri

I understand that my distance to Frankfurt does not make me in any way superior to other players playing the same game. How is that "elitist"? How is that "shaming myself"? What does any of that have to do with gender or one's perception thereof?

If you want to address the issue of lag itself, do that. If you want to implement supremacist policies of any kind, be open about that. Don't claim to solve "lag" when all you're "solving" is people you dislike (partly) due to lag.

Just admit you're trolling.

Quote from Darkaigirl

But I would had quit the game or looked for another Server if I wouldn't had been able to play it without constant Laggs.

The thing is though: there are no constant laggs on the EU server. Some latinos lagg, some don't and you can have perfectly fine dungeon runs with latinos as well.

Also since they are there from the beginning quitting the game doesn't sound like a good idea at all, as they probably put some money into the game as well. This is also the reason as to why there will be no such thing that somehow will reduce the playing experience of latinos, as GF wants to make as much money as possible.

Quote from Comrade Yuri

I understand that my distance to Frankfurt does not make me in any way superior to other players playing the same game. How is that "elitist"? How is that "shaming myself"? What does any of that have to do with gender or one's perception thereof?

If you want to address the issue of lag itself, do that. If you want to implement supremacist policies of any kind, be open about that. Don't claim to solve "lag" when all you're "solving" is people you dislike (partly) due to lag.

You were whining about how Europeans (Reminder: You are one too even if you "identify" yourself as the Nasod King with Eve as your Wife on your side..) are such "Elitists" for having better internet Receptions and Stuff... I hope you will get your 3rd permanently Ban soon.. You are resistent to learn from your Mistakes. This is the exact same Behaviour you always had and always will have. How about learning some social Skills?

Quote from Akichan

Quote from Darkaigirl

But I would had quit the game or looked for another Server if I wouldn't had been able to play it without constant Laggs.

The thing is though: there are no constant laggs on the EU server. Some latinos lagg, some don't and you can have perfectly fine dungeon runs with latinos as well.

Also since they are there from the beginning quitting the game doesn't sound like a good idea at all, as they probably put some money into the game as well. This is also the reason as to why there will be no such thing that somehow will reduce the playing experience of latinos, as GF wants to make as much money as possible.

The Latinos who don't lag would benefit from the seperated Queue too wouldn't they? Or the System can put them on the european Queue.

We just have to find a Solution for the Latinos who cause severe Laggs in every Run they enter. Latinos who don't cause the Problems are free to stay in the same Queue as us. (In my opinion. They don't harm anyone.)

Yes quitting the Game isn't an option anymore. I was talking about the time they have started the Game; that you shouldn't continue a Game which you can't play fluid and rather decide to look for a more fitting Server so that you yourself get a better Game Experience as well. As I said I don't think that the Latinos are enjoying these laggy Runs as well... If they really do enjoy them, then I honestly can't understand how you can have fun playing a Game picture to picture...

Quote from Darkaigirl

The Latinos who don't lag would benefit from the seperated Queue too wouldn't they? Or the System can put them on the european Queue.

We just have to find a Solution for the Latinos who cause severe Laggs in every Run they enter. Latinos who don't cause the Problems are free to stay in the same Queue as us. (In my opinion. They don't harm anyone.)

Yes quitting the Game isn't an option anymore. I was talking about the time they have started the Game; that you shouldn't continue a Game which you can't play fluid and rather decide to look for a more fitting Server so that you yourself get a better Game Experience as well. As I said I don't think that the Latinos are enjoying these laggy Runs as well... If they really do enjoy them, then I honestly can't understand how you can have fun playing a Game picture to picture...

Because IP-based seperation would totally make a difference between a non-lagging latino and a lagging latino.

Also "having fun playing a game pictur to picture"? What does this even have to do with it. Lagg and frame-drops are not the same thing. You can have a perfectly fine internet connection, and still have frame problems, but that's a totally different thing.

Apart from that: who says that they don't have fun playing the game? Not everyone complains about lagg that much, in fact look at all the people that wrote into this thread. They might seem familiar to you, as most of them also wrote the exact same things in the german version of this thread. What does this tell us?

I don't claim all Europeans to be elitists. Elitists are those Europeans who feel superior by virtue of living closer to Frankfurt, as if Mexicans were asked before their birth where they wanted to be born. You also misrepresent both my self-identification and my stance on Elrian politics as if either were relevant to the topic at hand.

People experiencing lag is not lag itself.

Quote from Akichan

Apart from that: who says that they don't have fun playing the game? Not everyone complains about lagg that much, in fact look at all the people that wrote into this thread. They might seem familiar to you, as most of them also wrote the exact same things in the german version of this thread. What does this tell us?

But these people also said that it is still grief play when lagging player abuse their laggs for their advantage in PvP. So Partly they have issues with those laggers to.
So far only you and Yuri are acting like you have no problem and refuse to belive that currently people suffer from those laggs exist. You guys behave like Holocaust denial and only post in this thread to increase your post counter and produce senseless uproar. The Solution given so far ,except for yuris and sharoonas, where plausible and fair.

The most proposed and popular proposal is:
Sorting people by similar distance, ip and Ping and queueing them up together PvE and PvP.
Many dont even mind (including me) matching us with them in PvE, but making this seperatio PvP only since it is a competetive kind of feature that requires fair conditions, especially in terms of laggs.

The most unreal proposal, and obviously only supported by 2 trolls :
Coding the whole client and and the game itself and maybe locate the whole server somewhere else.

the only kind of racist(?on second thought its wasnt even a racist policy) proposal was:
Bann anyone who caueses deliberatly distance laggs without beeing considered of other people suffering from it.

Quote from Sharoona

Considering that they know of their lags and don't care if they cause a bad playing experience for everyone else, i would hold them at fault for their behaviour, and therefore would remove them without second thought.

But first of all, my personal opinion does not reflect the opinion of everyone, and second, it is not my decision to make.

This solution sounds plausible but not fair towards those who paid money and a lot of time on this server.