Suzaku - Wanderer between Life and Death

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    Quote from Suzaku

    Lelouch, Xingke and Schnitzel are very strategic. Suzaku and Kallen are a bit reckless.

    Everything Lelouch and Schnitzel do is based on a strategy. They are for thinking the others for fighting.

    Of course. The deaths a symbol. Just like Zero himself. Lelouch wouldn't kill if it was meaningless right?

    I'm not too sure about Xingke, the show has him bleeding a lot due to his recklessness. As far as Lelouch and Schneizel are concerned, their confrontation is mostly about strategy, but it was Lelouch already knowing that things usually don't go "just as planned", which won him that battle. Plus him reusing pretty much all he learned in R1.

    IMO the only "symbolic" death was the last, as the in-universe and real life purpose of such a death overlap. Most other deaths served at least two purposes, one for the strategy and another for the narrative.

    Xingke also bleeds a lot because of his disease. But he might be even better than Kallen or Suzaku when it comes to fighting, And he won a strategic battle against Lelouch.

    Schnitzel realized it too, that things not always go as planned. But he was a bit like Vegeta, too confident.

    And Lelouch using what he learned is kinda a good message. To learn from your mistakes. And as we know Lelouch did a lot mistakes til the last few episodes,

    Deaths of certain people meant something to others. Maybe "symbol" wasn't the best choice. Of course it was a reason, why they have been good for Lelouch's plans. If the deaths of them would have been meaningless, Lelouch's plans wouldn't have worked.

    Warum schreiben wir eigentlich in englisch? Ich weiß, dass der Thread international ist. Aber wir können doch beide Deutsch.

    suzakuwyjvx.jpg by @Shiby

    Because English ist gleich so much more sophisticated. Außerdem interessiert sich vielleicht ja auch jemand aus dem internationalen Teil für Code Geass und will das lesen :)


    Quote from Suzaku

    If the deaths of them would have been meaningless, Lelouch's plans wouldn't have worked.

    I'd actually make that the other way round. If Lelouch's plans had not succeeded, those deaths would have been meaningless.

    Xingke's disease only ever kicks in when he's doing something reckless, although even without that I'm not too sure about the claim that the show itself has also made without any evidence. With the early introduction of the Lancelot, it's always felt as if the robots and their features are more relevant to the outcome of the battles and while there were some justifications like that "being in sync" stuff, that has remained true for pretty much every battle in the show.

    Schneizel appears as if the battle against Lelouch was the first occurrence of such a thing, at least on a greater scale.

    Not all deaths forwarded Lelouch's plan, some were rather detrimental. In the end, it somehow happened to work out in his favour.

    Quote from Comrade Yuri

    I'd actually make that the other way round. If Lelouch's plans had not succeeded, those deaths would have been meaningless.

    Xingke's disease only ever kicks in when he's doing something reckless, although even without that I'm not too sure about the claim that the show itself has also made without any evidence. With the early introduction of the Lancelot, it's always felt as if the robots and their features are more relevant to the outcome of the battles and while there were some justifications like that "being in sync" stuff, that has remained true for pretty much every battle in the show.

    Schneizel appears as if the battle against Lelouch was the first occurrence of such a thing, at least on a greater scale.

    Not all deaths forwarded Lelouch's plan, some were rather detrimental. In the end, it somehow happened to work out in his favour.

    A question of perspective.

    Xingke also spat blood because of it when he just traveled by train. It's not because he's fighting. We don't really know why, but we know that he hadn't much time to live.

    The knightmares were very relevant for the outcome. Just like in the episode where the Lancelot was introduced. But as we know, the more features a knightmarer has the harder it is to control. The better knightmares are all kinda made for their pilots. I mean there is a second Lancelot but it isn't almost as strong as Suzaku's.

    Schnitzel sometimes admitted defeat and asked himseld what his father would have done in his situation. But since he never lost to Lelouch he thought, he could easily win.

    That would be the point where not everything goes as planned. But he learned from it and it worked out in his favor at the end.


    Aki Momoko ist ein missverstandenes Monster. Wobei es einen gibt, der sie ganz gut versteht und auch mit ein Grund ist, warum sie als Monster angesehen wird.

    suzakuwyjvx.jpg by @Shiby

    Well, yes, I'm assuming Lelouch's perspective for that statement, or rather the perspective of anyone who'd want to support or replicate his endeavour.

    Okay, sure, Xingke does bleed a lot, but when he's bleeding in fights, it's always connected to some act of recklessness, e.g. him bleeding because he did something, or him ignoring his bleeding to fight on.

    Pink Lancelot is more fabulous than the actual one, so that's a great plus. If you're talking about the mass produced ones, they've got features removed to make mass production easier, so they don't really count. Fine-tuning the mech to the pilot was also kinda an R2 thing, and even then it's only after having established that the pilot fits the mech. See all the Lancelot and Guren upgrades.

    I don't think Schneizel saw his father as the better commander or better at anything really. He wanted him removed, because he thought himself to be the best.

    The deaths don't fit nicely into "just as planned" or "totally not planned" categories. Rather they exist on a spectrum of varied plannedness, like Shirley's father who he accidentally killed while he also totally not accidentally killed a lot of Britannians with the exact same method. It's a bit more nuanced than that, and his strategy towards the end was far from perfect, yet also just a bit better than Schneizel's. Even the Zero Requiem still has its flaws if we just look at it from enough angles.

    It's true that he's more reckless later as at the beginning. Probably because he didn't do his own plans because he worked for Lelouch or Schneizel.

    I meant the pink one. The others are just mass production with better equipment. Just like PS to PS4. Better Hardware but nothing special.

    I didn't mean the tuning. I just meant how the knightmares were made. There was always just one pilot who could control them. I wonder whose knightmare the Gawain would have been if Lelouch didn't steal it.

    Schnitzel reflected if he did the right thing and how things would have turned out if his father had the choice of action. I know that he doesn't have a high opinion of his father.

    I thought i wrote "certain people". Shirley's father and other more or less random guys from the army weren't who i meant. He was more like these guys from the first episode.

    Of course it was far from perfect. Not that he had a better chance than this. You know the Damokles and Freya.

    The Zero Requiem was his try to bring peace to the world without forcing it. At least for the next time. As C.C. said people will always fight again sooner or later. The Damokles also woldn't have been there forever. When Schnitzel would have died, someone else would have overtaken the Damokles. And nobody knows what he would have done with it.

    suzakuwyjvx.jpg by @Shiby

    I don't think Xingke changes too drastically over the course of the season, rather we get to know him a bit better. His primary concern was the princess, first and foremost, he didn't care about Lelouch's and Schneizel struggle to a greater extent, but he thought he'd have to take the side that better ensures her safety.

    The knightmares were never made with a specific pilot (or duo in the case of Gawain) in mind. In fact, Schneizel used the Gawain for its Hadron cannons before Lelouch got hold of it, and he'd surely have had some decent pilots, had Lelouch not stolen it. Even in the introduction of the Lancelot, Suzaku just so happens to be the pilot that's suited best for it. This does not mean, that it was created specifically for Suzaku. In fact, it's the other way round. The show very explicitly states that while the robots are costly, their pilots are to a large extent expendable.

    When we only think of certain deaths, we lose the larger picture. Sure, some deaths had a greater impact on the result and especially Lelouch's or Suzaku's growth as characters, but each and every one of them contributed to the situation they found themselves in.

    Sure, the final battle was not going to be won easily. But if he was put into this place through outside forces, we can't really think of it as a good move either, it's more akin to Zugzwang.

    The argument from human nature really should not work for the Zero Requiem. The show ended by stating that without fighting pointless battles, humanity was finally able to improve healthcare, education, etc. etc. Lelouch has in part worked towards a new society, e.g. by abolishing nobility, but also just put on that "brutal dictator" façade for the purpose of the Zero Requiem. Thing is, that people don't really try to differentiate that in hindsight. Especially the ex-nobility would have thought like "Lelouch was an evil dictator because he abolished nobility", and with his death reactionaries would have tried to get ye good old system back. If history books speak of someone as a brutal dictator, that's usually because the author holds opposing views.

    Had the Damokles not flown into the sun, Schneizel and his successors would have "enforced" peace for generations to come.

    I didn't write that Xingke changed. Just his course of action.


    You're right. Schnitzel used the cannons of Gawain. But he never used a knightmare as its pilot. And he'd probably used the Gawain from the Avalon or pilots that probably wouldn't have been as good with it. They are not made for them but just like the EVAs in Evangelion it's rather hard to find a suitable pilot. That's what i meant when i wrote that they are made for them. You can use any pilot but he probably wouldn't be as good. That's why normal soldiers get normal knightmares.


    Of course they do. But it's more the deaths themselves in this case as the specific persons like Shirley's father. All of them are part of it, but it could've been anybody else. For Example it could've been Milly's father for whatever reason. Just because he's a part of something.


    It was about who made his move first. Of course someone had to move. Either way Lelouch had the disadvantage. And if Schnitzel would have known Lelouch or his Geass better he might have won that battle. He lost the moment Lelouch used his Geass. We don't really know what would have happened if Lelouch wouldn't have been able to use his Geass.


    But the human nature is kinda what leads to war. Also if some things changed, nothing is for eternity. Even if the Damokles would've been there for let's say 500 years. Someday things would've changed. For example just because of progress in technology. You could say that they could just build a better Damokles then. But for that someone would've had to leave it. And then they would be vulnerable. We can't really say what would've been. For the time being there was some "peace". And that is at least something.

    suzakuwyjvx.jpg by @Shiby